How can stores reduce staff turnover?

Ron (00:05): Welcome to season two of Frontline Fridays. I’m your host, Ron Thurston, and this season, we’re diving deeper into what it really takes to lead on the front lines of retail and hospitality. Together, we’ll uncover the biggest shifts in frontline work and how smart leaders are navigating them to drive results when it matters most. And you’ll hear from top executives, industry experts, and powerhouse operators, all sharing tactics you can put to work immediately.

Ron: I’m zeroing in on one thing every retail leader is obsessed with and that’s employee retention. How to keep your best people engaged, loyal, and at the top of their game. My guest Billy Kissel knows exactly what it takes because he’s living it every day. Billy is a retail leader with over 35 years of experience but what really defines him is his authenticity, purpose, and people first mindset.

Ron: He started his career on the front lines and worked his way up through multi-unit and executive roles and today serves as the head of stores for the East at Office Depot. He’s led large field teams for some of retail’s most respected brands, including Gap, J.Crew, and West Elm all across North America. Billy’s known for transforming store cultures, building standout leaders, and creating coaching frameworks that put people at the heart of performance.

Ron: Billy is the real deal. And I know this for a fact because he used to work for me. So Billy, welcome to Frontline Fridays.

Billy (01:40): Thanks. Thank you, Ron. So happy to be here.

How did Ron and Billy first meet?

Ron (01:43): So happy that you’re here with us. So I wanted to throw it to you because I wanted you to share the story about how we met many years ago at this point. And here we are, both of us still immersed in the world of retail. So why don’t you tell the story?

Billy (01:58): Sure. Well, Ron, I can’t believe it’s been almost 20 years since you hired me. You made a very good hiring decision and hired me to work at West Elm in a very interesting up and coming neighborhood called Wynwood. There’s a lot of money riding on this location. So I’m sure there’s a lot of stress. We got to work together in 2006. We launched the brand in Florida. We hired an amazing team at my first store there at Midtown.

Billy (02:28): Really just a powerhouse of leaders. When I think about frontline workers, I don’t think we could have made a better dream team at that location. And then we just stuck together. You moved on to big things and I moved up in my career and we’ve stayed in touch the entire time.

Ron (02:44): We have. And we’ve seen each other multiple times. You were running West Elm and I lived in New York. We would see each other. We’ve seen each other in Miami again since, and it’s just a pleasure and I’m really proud to have watched your career.

Billy (02:57): It’s been a pleasure to have you as a mentor and somebody I can always talk to, get great advice from.

Ron (03:03): What I think you didn’t share is that when I left West Elm, you took over as head of stores. And so you were kind of my successor. And it’s always such a great way to have those people that you know when you moved, you’re in very good hands. And I always felt that way with you.

Billy (03:24): Yeah, I think, I mean, it’s just amazing that, what do you think about your legacy and the important things? Sometimes we think about awards, recognition, but it’s really about your legacy of talent. Where are people today that you got to work with?

How to reduce retail employee turnover?

Ron (03:37): So let’s jump into why I wanted you to be on the show to speak specifically about retention, because this is a conversation that every brand has with me of how do we retain our people? And I think often there’s a perception that if I just do X, what do I have to do to keep my people? Often, do I need to pay them more? And I think it still seems like a mystery.

Ron: I know you would agree retention is a highly complex, very human centric point of view about how to build this. In many ways, it’s a KPI in our business. So tell us about your approach to people and retention specifically.

Billy (04:22): Yeah, I think sometimes there is a compensation factor. I think you have to understand what motivates the team, what’s competitive in the marketplace. Is there an incentive for the quantity of sales? Is it commission-based? But that’s just a small part of it. Probably the biggest part is creating the culture where people want to work in your business. So show up with your very best. Make sure that you bring your best for your team every day.

Billy: Make sure that you have a company that focuses on recognition, that’s purpose-driven, that connects what’s important to those associates, and they can bring that to life in the job scope.

Ron (05:02): And when did you discover that this kind of commitment to retention was the unlock to success of your, I would say of your business, but maybe of your career?

Billy (05:14): Yeah, I think I’ve known it the entire time I’ve been in retail, that if you’re short staffed and you don’t have great people working, then you’re at a loss. I think when it became really pronounced is when I was in New York City. And we discovered that we had really great million, two million dollar sellers on our teams that had second and third jobs because New York is expensive. And we discovered there that, you know what, we need to look at our compensation package.

Billy: We knew we had a great culture. I had created a fantastic culture amongst my team, but we realized that there was a compensation factor. We needed to find out how much do we need to pay these two million dollar sellers so they could quit their other jobs. I guess that was probably the time in my career when it became so pronounced, that by paying more money, we as a business can make even more money and be even more successful. And the benefit to the associate was that they actually had a better quality of life because they weren’t running around trying to pick up extra hours here and there.

Ron (06:16): What would you estimate that impact has on the business in general? Would you say it attributes to positive comp performance? I certainly would.

Billy (06:27): Yes, I think it’s 10% comp in general. I think when you’re short-staffed or you have the wrong people, that’s a 10% impact. I think in New York, it’s a million dollar impact.

Why does retention matter more with smaller store teams?

Ron (06:38): It’s funny because when I think back to you and I opening West Elm in Midtown, I think that team was probably, I don’t know, 75 people in there. 100 people maybe when we opened. When you and I opened the big flagship in Puerto Rico, I think we hired 100 people. That idea doesn’t really exist today. These really massive teams, they’re smaller today than they were then.

Ron: And payroll is different today and the expectations are different today. And so I often think retention is actually an even more important conversation today because the teams are smaller. All of a sudden you’re understaffed because the team was 10, now it’s seven. Then I have a couple of call outs, now it’s five. And then you’re scrambling all day.

Billy (07:29): Yeah, it is. There’s a lot of scrambling happening. I think whenever we open those big teams though, we lead with culture first. And anytime we open new businesses, we have to ensure that while we’re teaching operations, we’re teaching selling, we’re also not underestimating the power of culture, the power of purpose, how their contribution to our business is actually giving a bigger contribution to the world in many cases.

How to connect with frontline workers?

Ron (07:53): So when you and I spoke last week, you mentioned this phrase that I hadn’t heard before, that empowering the front line starts with leaders being present and visible. And that’s a specific phrase that you use. So can you dig into that more for me?

Billy (08:08): Yeah, I think in my career, I’ve learned that leaders have to be visible to their teams and they have to be present when they are visible. And what I mean by that is, whether there’s good times or bad times, leaders have to be in the field. Leaders have to be on video. Leaders have to be in the locations. When you’re giving it that effort, you have to be present, which means when I travel, I clear my calendar. I travel Tuesday to Thursdays and I do my very, very best to protect that time.

Billy (08:38): So I can be present with our store associates. So I can really look them in the eye and ask them, how are you doing? Find out how long have you worked here and what makes work fun and enjoyable? I ask them to tell me about something they’re proud of, a success story. Or one of my famous lines is I’ll ask them, what are you famous for? What do people in the company know you for? Or maybe people in the district or people in the store know you for. But I can’t do that if I’m looking at my phone.

Billy: If I have an Apple Watch on and it’s nudging me, you can’t do that if you’re not present. You can’t really hear.

Ron (09:12): And they know that. They know you’re not present.

Billy (09:15): And they make every allowance. Hey, I know you’re really busy. I get that a lot. I know you’re really busy. If you need to take calls or if you need to take a meeting, you can use this office. And I make it clear, there’s nothing more important today than for me to be here talking to you and your team right now.

How do you stay present and visible at scale?

Ron (09:33): Yeah. And so Billy, how do you do that at scale? You have a large store count today, a large employee count. How do you make sure you feel present and visible at scale?

Billy (09:45): Yeah, I will use video a lot. So I try to make sure that I’m on camera so that everyone can see me when it is virtual. I require video for all of my team meetings. When we do regional recognition calls, I make sure that everyone has a camera on so that we can see each other. I use very few slide decks, because if you have a slide deck up, you can’t see people. Tuesday to Thursdays I travel. So I try to get to as many locations as possible.

Billy: It’s not a contest to see how many I can see, but it is important to really look at people’s faces, hourly associates, those that are in the weeds of everything, to look them in the eye and say, thank you for what you do. So it’s important to see as many stores as I can. But I also do town halls, because sometimes to get that message out to the masses, you have to have them come to you so that you’re able to amplify and evangelize that message.

Billy: In a more intimate setting, even though there’s a lot of people, it saves a lot of bandwidth and a lot of battery power to do it in that setting.

How can stores boost employee morale?

Ron (10:49): And what do you think the impact of that, of town halls like that and you having this reputation for being present and visible, what has that done for the culture of the company today and I think of your career?

Billy (11:02): Yeah, I think over the course of my career, and I’ve done this really everywhere that I’ve worked, I think it humanizes retail. One thing I really try to do is humanize that there’s not a conglomerate running this company. There are human beings. There are people that care about the associate experience, that care about our external customer and our internal customer experience. But I also think it builds trust. I think that when I’m able to look people in the eyes, not only does it humanize me,

Billy (11:30): not only does it give me a chance to amplify the message of the priorities, but it also gives me a chance to build trust, to ask them questions, to get to know them as human beings. And hopefully when we depart from our interaction, they are going to use that power for good. They’re going to say, hey, that guy was actually really interesting, or he asked me how I was doing, he knew my name. And I do try to do recognition too. So I don’t give out recognition like a blue ribbon at a fair, but I give it out when it’s well deserved, and we do it in a purposeful way, and we make sure that we make time for it every time.

How do you close the loop on frontline feedback?

Ron (12:05): As I think about that, and I think I’ve been in similar situations, how do you take all of that feedback? So you’ve been present and visible at scale, which equates to a lot of feedback. A lot of, why don’t we do this? I need more of this. A lot of questions about the company. How then do you go back and share what you learned? And maybe more importantly, what actions are you taking?

Billy (12:31): Yeah, well, we always take good notes. And I do ask the question. I ask, what feedback do you have? What can we do better to smooth the road humps in the selling process? What are we doing today that doesn’t make sense, that we’ve just been doing? That’s a great way to facilitate questions. I think in the town hall environment, it makes people feel really comfortable to ask more questions because there are more people there that they know. But we take really good notes.

Billy: Of those questions, that feedback. Sometimes I’m able to get answers in a moment by just having some insight that they didn’t know. It’s methodical. Take really good notes. We divvy it up between our store support partners and we put timely feedback out there and we are committed to closing the loop on that feedback. Getting the feedback is the easy part. Getting it back out to the field can be challenging. We can do that through a follow-up virtual meeting.

Billy (13:24): Where we can walk through, these were our takeaways. We can also cascade it down from the regional level down to district levels to stores. It’s really important to close the feedback. It’s the most critical part of this, because we don’t want anyone to think that we just listened and didn’t do anything with it. So when we’re able to connect and close the loop on that feedback in a very transparent way, articulating the whys.

Billy: On why we were able to move forward with this program, or why we are not able to move forward with it now. Explaining the whys, sticking to the facts and owning up to it, I think is really important. And we just do it piece by piece. Sometimes it may take us a couple of weeks to get the feedback, but we’re gonna get the feedback. Sometimes we don’t like the closing of the loop because it’s not what we wanted, but we’ll always explain the why. And if it wasn’t something we’re moving forward with now, then I’ll keep that in my book and I’ll revisit it when the time is appropriate.

What does a head of stores actually do?

Ron (14:27): The interesting part about jobs like ours, in these kind of head of stores roles, is that you are the link between a massive field organization and all of your corporate business partners. You have to keep both sides of the table happy at all times. And it’s a real challenging role. And all of us that have had that, you really feel that difference.

Ron: Sometimes you’re a corporate employee and you’re trying to manage expectations of the senior leadership team. And other times you’re having conversations with part-time associates who talk about the challenges of their work. That’s what makes your job so complex and so interesting, and I think as an industry so difficult.

Billy (15:14): Yeah, we have to face them. Sometimes we don’t like what’s going on in the field. We don’t like what’s going on in corporate. But the difference between a lot of the different roles is that I have to go out and face them. My team has to go out and face the associates. And we want to deal with pride. We want to make sure that we’re all aligned. We may not always agree with the decisions that were made, but we have to align to those decisions. And the best way to align is to explain the whys. Make sure that there’s a reason why this is happening and make sure that we’re communicating that out as much as possible.

How to drive retail employee engagement?

Ron (15:45): And you shared with me the sense of discovery of when things were going great, and giving the opportunity for your leadership team to take a winner’s lap and to take a moment to recognize greatness in them. Maybe it was your big idea that translated into a program that then got executed beautifully in stores. Tell us more about the winner’s lap mentality.

Billy (16:15): Yeah, I think the winner’s lap is critical. As a company, as an organization, we have to take winner’s laps. Whenever a field associate or a colleague had a great idea that we were able to put into action, and we were able to, in many cases, simplify a work process or drive incremental sales from an idea out there, we have to connect it to all of our associates, let them know that this came from the field.

Billy: Whenever we can, we wanna connect it to an individual location, a store, or even a person, to make sure that it just amplifies the message that we’re really listening. We hear you, and whenever we can act on things, we act on it. So I think that winner’s lap is really, really critical.

Ron (16:57): And again, if you link that back to retention, being recognized for your contributions, your work, your impact on business, that feels good. And your likelihood to stay will probably go up. And your potential commitment to a career in retail changes, your commitment to the company changes, all of that. They sound, I think, sometimes small, but they have such big impact. Just being the leader that knows how to be tough, but also knows when to give people the chance to take a winner’s lap.

Billy (17:35): Yeah, when people trust you, when people know you’re listening, when people know that you’re present, it makes a world of difference. And I think that when they trust you, they follow you. When they follow you, they want to be a part of the better company. There may be programs in certain companies that they’re able to join in that align with their purpose. All of those things keep people coming to work. They keep people committed and put them into a growth cycle.

How do you lead and retain multi-store leaders?

Ron (18:05): Agreed. Tell us about your approach to leading multi-store leaders. As you’ve grown in your career, you and I both know going from single store to multi-store is hard. And then leading multi-store leaders is even harder. So how have you developed that skill, and how do you retain those people?

Billy (18:26): Yeah, it’s really interesting because I think whenever leaders are getting promoted, you have to take different stances. When I’m out traveling with my leaders, my field team, my job is to observe them in action. What is the impact that they’re having with their teams and their organization? Are they cascading the information out? Are we seeing the culture in their stores? Are we seeing consistent conversations and results around our priorities?

Billy: The only way that I can really judge how they’re doing, or assess how they’re doing, is for me to see it in action. So a benefit is I get to meet a lot of people in a lot of stores and I get to shake a lot of hands. And I really mean that. It’s critical that I get to see those faces. That’s where I get my energy. But for me to know how a leader is doing across maybe 20, 30 stores, the best way for me to do that is to go visit those stores and see, did they bring to life what we have been focusing on? Are they bringing that strategy to life? Are they executing well? And do we see it in the people that we’re meeting?

Ron (19:37): And can you think of any examples where that really shined through? Because I certainly can think about times when you’re like, wow, that exceeded my expectations. I thought this was a good idea. I didn’t realize this would catch fire like it did. And now all of a sudden I’m visiting stores and they are obsessed with this idea.

Billy (20:00): Especially with those new promotions, internal promotions. I’ve had a lot of success with promoting people internally. And my outlook on that is when you promote someone internally, you know what you’re getting, or at least you know a lot more of what you’re getting than just hiring somebody that went through an interview process. They already have skin in the game. You’ve already seen what they can do. And there’s many cases, one specific I think about in our South Florida market, where we promoted an internal general manager to a district manager.

Billy (20:30): And the culture in that environment has really gone off to the high end of engagement, and results are going in that direction too. We went from an area that was unmotivated. If you were going to do a meeting or a town hall, you’d have low attendance. You just had people kicking the can, it felt like. With a new leader, whenever you’re able to develop them, explain what the priorities are, really make sure that they understand what they’re gonna be assessed on and what’s important with their career, I think you see that come to life.

Billy: And not only do you see a drop in retention, at first you may see some people leave because maybe they’re not signed up to the new programs that this leader’s bringing. But the energy that they’re bringing makes a difference. And it transcends across one store to multiple stores. And it drives positive results. Not just the behaviors, but the results are fantastic also.

Ron (21:32): Yeah, I know that leader and I can understand that. I had coffee with him a couple months ago and he’s a very special guy. And I agree, if you’re bought in to him and his vision, you will go far.

Billy (21:48): Yeah, and he brings a different outlook on typical retail. Some of us have been in this business a lot longer than we like to admit. But he brings in an energy and a different outlook on things. And it kind of catches people off guard. But I could say, whoa, that’s not how we do it. But the reality is, that’s how they do it. And let’s support that. And let’s say, you know what, this is working for you. Congratulations.

Billy (22:17): As long as we’re meeting the initiatives and the priorities, that’s what matters most.

Ron (22:21): Because when you think about retention in a multi-generational workforce, the rules don’t apply to all. Often leaders like that can teach those of us that have been doing this a long time that actually it won’t work. Or you’re forgetting about this group of people. Or that learning and development program is not being adopted because of the way that it’s written. The list can go on. And I very much admire people who are willing to raise their hand and say, I understand why you want to do that, but here’s why it won’t work. And here’s how we can actually make it better.

Billy (23:00): Yeah, it’s a give and take. I think there’s nothing better than whenever I have a new promotion or new hire, and the team, this is another way I kind of understand are they doing a great job or not, that team will come up to me and hug me and say, thank you so much for bringing this person into our sphere of work, because they’re making a difference. And there’s no better way to understand how someone’s doing outside of results and behaviors than having someone just tell you they’re doing it.

Is one hundred percent retention the goal?

Ron (23:29): I want to wrap up the last couple of questions here as we approach our mark, but I love this idea. And I think sometimes there’s a misconception here that a hundred percent retention is not the goal. And the senior leadership team may say, I don’t understand why the turnover is so high in the field. Because generally turnover in corporate environments is not nearly as high as the field. But you and I both know there is always going to be more turnover in the field for a variety of reasons.

Ron (23:58): And how do you speak to that in the senior leadership environment? Because I’m sure you get questioned about it. I always have. Like, why is it 30%, 40%, why is it this number? How do you handle that today?

Billy (24:14): Well, I think one is be transparent. Winners are gonna win. Winners typically win and they’re gonna be great. And you don’t want them to leave. You wanna make sure that you don’t coddle them, but I wanna make sure that I’m really in tune with them and their performance. And out there, there’s always gonna be people who are working against the system. And it’s unfortunate, but maybe they are signed up to the old style or old programs and they don’t wanna change.

Billy: What I’ve done in my career is I like to travel with them even more. I wanna see through their eyes. What are they teaching their teams? Whenever they’re out in the field, what are they talking about? And I can see it very visibly. It spans out more than most people think, but when you’re traveling multiple districts or multiple stores, you can see a trend in attitude, you can see a trend in talking points, what those team members are talking about.

Billy: And if it’s going against the grain and going against what we’re working towards, I have to call it out very directly, in a very kind way. I always assume positive intent. That’s my measurement of my ability to give feedback: am I saying this with positive intent? And I just ask them, why do you think we’re not seeing any of the initiatives come to life in your area? And hopefully they can change that behavior. But that’s something I would consider to be good turnover if they decided to leave.

Ron (25:41): And being self-reflective about turnover then too. Like, what could we have done? Sometimes there are things as a company or as a leader that we could do differently. It’s not always them. It’s also us.

Billy (25:55): Sometimes in our drag to get buy-in, we often just roll over people and say, this is what we’re doing now. So I think the town halls, I think the visits, I call it evangelizing. I’m evangelizing the message, I’m bringing it to life, I’m doing it with them. So on our store visits, I’m not just saying, go do this. I’m saying, let’s do it together. Show me how to do it.

Billy: In my Puerto Rico market, the current one and the ones in the past, Puerto Rico, it’s amazing. I’ve always said, show me, show me how you do it, because it’s amazing how they bring it to life, how they articulate it. If I asked them to write it down, they would just say, I just do everything that everybody else does. But when they show me, it’s, wow, this is exceptional what you’re doing. So I think it’s not about talking about it. Let’s go do it. And let me show you, let me fall down trying to show you how to do it. Because I think it’s also important for me to be humble. And I may try to role play or skill build a behavior and I may fail at it, but it’s okay, because we learn together.

What did Mickey Drexler teach Billy about urgency?

Ron (27:04): I love that. Before I ask you the last question, you had made a post this week on LinkedIn about an interaction with Mickey Drexler very early in your career. Can you share a little bit of insight on that? Because you and I both started at the Gap. It’s just another funny coincidence that you and I have. We didn’t work together, but I have early, early Mickey Drexler stories too, from the eighties, early nineties. So just share a couple of things about that post, because I thought it was so beautifully connected to a lot of what we’ve spoken about today.

Billy (27:37): Yeah, I’ve been reflecting a lot on my LinkedIn post and trying to bring in something that’s going to help the world be a better place. Mickey had posted recently about an experience he had at SoulCycle. And he gave some feedback and the instructor said, you’ll never have to tell me that twice. And it reminded me of my first interaction with him. I am probably 19, 20 years old, in Miami in the early 90s. It was a very interesting photo of me back then.

Billy: Mickey came into our store and my general manager mostly walked with him. I was just kind of listening, taking notes, and he asked to remove a tee stand, one of the fixtures that most retail clothing stores have. And he said, hey, this doesn’t work here. It doesn’t make sense. It impedes the flow of traffic. And the general manager acknowledged it. I wrote it down. And Mickey was fast and furious, and he left the store that day.

Billy: And my general manager got us all together. We were recapping the visit and we were talking about the things that we were gonna do. Lo and behold, about 30 minutes later, Mickey walks back in and we’re like, whoa. And he walks up to that fixture and he looks at the general manager and says, why is this still here? The general manager was like, well, we’re gonna take care of that tonight. And he’s like, why would you wait till tonight? And it reminded me of urgency.

Billy: We have to be urgent, and I swear since that interaction I’ve been urgent in everything that I do. I don’t ever want to have to answer something twice, because we should be urgent in what we do. I got to work with him later on at J.Crew whenever he was working on the turnaround and bringing back

Billy (29:27): the amazing style and looks of the past. And he just made it so clear that feedback is critical. Feedback should be given with not a lot of words. It should be direct. But we’re all in this together. And if we’re all in this together and we have positive intent, we should be able to give feedback all the time. And it really just resonated back to 1992 at the Gap at Bayside Marketplace in Miami.

Ron (29:52): I love it. Think about the power that you have today to make those moments. That someone 20 years from now, God, 2045, is going to be writing about you.

Billy (30:03): Well, I do think there’s a phrase out there, when you think no one’s looking, that’s when everyone’s looking. I believe that’s true. And we have to make sure that everything we do and display, we’re making a difference in people’s lives. And I think that’s really, really critical for us to remember.

What can a retail leader do tomorrow to improve retention?

Ron (30:20): Yeah, it’s why we do what we do. Last question. So if every leader listening could take just one action tomorrow to boost retention, what would it be? Just one act.

Billy (30:31): I think one of the most challenging things for people to do is, especially in the mornings, we get lots of messages, lots of emails. My advice is close your computer, put your phone in your pocket, go to a store, go to a restaurant, whatever your line of work is, go into the field and engage team members. Ask them why they work here, what makes work fun, how we can make work a better place, how we can be more efficient. Just engage the teams.

Billy (31:00): I think it’s very simple, that you’ve got to close the computer first.

Ron (31:04): Beautifully said. Thank you. Thank you, Billy. It’s such a pleasure to have this full circle moment, that is not over by any stretch, but it’s great to be able to do this with you.

Billy (31:13): It’s been a pleasure. I love observing you and watching your journey here. I think you’re making a difference in a lot of people’s lives.

Ron (31:20): Thank you, Billy. And for everyone listening, ask yourself, where can you be more present, give more access, or celebrate wins this week? Those moments matter, as Billy described. Follow YOOBIC on LinkedIn for show updates. And if you’re ready to connect, train, and empower your front lines with the next generation tools, click the link in the show notes to learn more. Until next time, I’m Ron Thurston. Keep leading boldly and keep empowering your people.